Please note: This is neither a rant nor a statement regarding my politics.
Okay, so I take a lunch break, like most folks, and I tend to watch YouTube videos while I have lunch. I generally start with the previous night’s clips from Late Night with Seth Meyers and The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, because I find them funny. They’re gateway drugs (though, I was gated into them by John Oliver; the idea of such an obviously British guy hosting an American comedy show was too good to miss). I’ll end up watching clips from CNN, or Full Frontal with Samantha Bee, or The Young Turks. Occasionally, I get fooled into clicking on something I really, massively don’t agree with, and then YouTube thinks I want to see more of that kind of crap, but that’s beside the point.
The point, or the question I want to ask my American readers, is… Well, it seems like American politics only has extremes. I’m English and used to UK politics. We have such glories as The Monster Raving Loony Party (who have been known to beat some of the major parties in elections, if never enough to get a seat in Parliament). Our two main parties (technically it’s three, but the Liberals only count as an afterthought) tend to be middle-of-the-road. The are known as the Conservatives and Labour (the Liberals used to be the Wigs; don’t ask). The Conservatives have been most successful recently by being liberal. Labour are socialist, but tend to do much better when they don’t really enact socialist policies (which is why they’re currently not Her Majesty’s Government, but Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition). American politics only seems to have extremes, and you don’t even call them by recognisable names! The Republicans seem to be Conservative (capital C). Your Democrats seem more in the middle-ground, but their supporters, while not rabid Communists, seem to be utterly fanatical about their support.
I tend to steer clear of too much politics in my books because I don’t understand the nature of the thing in America (where a lot of my stuff is set). I tend to avoid major characters-of-colour (to coin a phrase) for similar reasons (or I engineer a setting where the prejudice I’m told about is somehow mitigated; in the Ultrahumans books, some of the racial prejudice which should be there has been mitigated by prejudice against Ultras, for example). In True Dark, the 2016 Presidential Election takes place, but it’s not the one that really happened (even if I couldn’t stop myself putting in some… Trump-related elements; okay, so I didn’t want to stop myself). I got to fictionalise things, so it’s more my universe’s version of American politics, based on what I see and hear.
So, the question is: is the American political environment really so polarised? What’s the experience of people who live in it? In the UK, most people don’t really care (which is why we ended up with Brexit), but do Americans feel this stuff more deeply?
If we’re going to do this, let’s remain civil, please. I’m looking for how Americans feel about politics, not how you feel about particular parties or people, so let’s avoid bating the trolls. Thanks.
Witches and Ray-Guns 
didn’t brexit have a ridiculously high voter turnout? Seems odd to use it as a example of people not caring (though that is nto really the question you want answered).
imo the reason why American politics are so weird lies in their first past the post system, electoral college and the cold war making socialist a dirty word. The system promotes the elimination of smaller parties so the natural consquence is having two large parties and as they get entrenched they need to diffrentiate themselves from each other on some spesific issues to attract their own set of voters.
The weird thing is that from a European, and especially a Scandinavian perspective, both the republican and the democrat party are solidly conservative, but they have found their perspective pet peeves that they will stab a fool over
Brexit had a pretty high turnout, 72.2% (according to the Electoral Commission), which is, I totally agree, basically unheard of. And the following morning, the news was flooded with interviews and comments from people saying something like “Well, I was sure my vote didn’t really count, so I just voted to leave because I’m a moron.” That last part is only my perception of them, but given that they didn’t really want us to leave the EU, I think I’m justified in my conclusion.
Yes, they got off their behinds to vote, but they didn’t bother finding out what they were voting for. It’s a different kind of voter apathy, but it’s likely to have more impact than all the usual voter apathy ever has.
That reminds me of the reason why classical economics don’t work, because they expect people to be rational.
I have no idea how any rational person could ever expect people to be rational. (Think about it.)
PS. I’m plotting out the next section of the next book. Which is why my mind is wandering all over the place. I think I’m taking Heather Bryant to rural Missouri and Kentucky. I am also beginning to conclude that I’m a masochist.
As your bio on Amazon says you were born near Hadrian’s Wall, so you’re almost a Scot. Given that, your politics is no doubt (in my mind) influenced by Scots separatism and your understanding of Brexit is most likely tainted by recent attempts by Scotland to dissolve at least some of the bonds between Scotland and England (U.K.)
We here in the United States are in a position of wishing to become separated from the idiot who illegitimately occupies the White House and the office of President of the United States. The followers of said idiot, aka/ Lord Cheeto also being either idiots or morons have proven themselves to be loud, obnoxious and/or prone to violence or the threat thereof. Since it is impossible to engage in reasoned discourse with either morons or idiots it appears we may be in danger of yet another civil war.
Ah, but you’re missing an important point about (fairly ancient) Scottish/English politics. If you’re from just south of Hadrian’s Wall, you’re a Geordie (not that I am any more, but…). The Geordies got the name from being rabid supporters of the English monarchy. So, if anything, I should be violently English.
Actually, I’m not drastically patriotic either way. Weirdly enough, I expect the EU to collapse at some point in the future (based on various futurology predictions I’ve read) and the political situation in my Fox books is based around that. I expected that the UK would end up out of the EU. I just didn’t expect it to be quite so soon!
And this is why we have issues here. The left is pretty much all about insulting anybody they disagree with. If you don’t support them you are a Nazi, White supremacist, misogynist racist.
That and they think that when they physically attack the people that they disagree with that it’s OK, and that they are just standing up against the forces of evil and it is bad when they usually end up getting beat up by the people they attacked.
To be honest that’s not so much an issue of Left or Right but basic human nature. When we firmly believe we are right about something we tend to lose that cognitive dissonance that allows us to approach something from different angles regardless of if it contradicts our current view.
In one of the early Thaumatology books I remember Lily pointing out that liberals can be very non-liberal with people with lifestyles or views they couldn’t contemplate having themselves.
As polarized as they seem now, they have been worse. Not all that long ago (from a historical standpoint at least) we had a civil war and slaughtered tens of thousands of our countrymen over the right to own slaves. And if anyone wants to start the apologists’ line of crap that it was about state’s rights, I encourage you to read some of the Declarations of Succession. Particularly Mississippi’s. They state in plain English that slavery is the cause.
But I digress. The reason things are so polarized and insane here right now boils down to the way we do elections, combined with the media environment we’re in, combined with an incredibly effective propaganda machines keeping a particular subset of vocal voters in a major reality distortion field. And as someone who has to live through the idiocy on a daily basis, and then deal with the aftermath of the morons we (collectively) elect, it’s all rather depressing.
From where I sit, they both want a welfare state in order to get and keep votes so they can feed their egos and stay in power. The difference is in who they spend the government’s largess upon, the corporations or the people. Not that either party does me much good, my business is too small and I’m not rich enough to receive Republican largess, and I’m not poor enough to receive Democratic largess.
I find the Republican’s Kinder, Küche, Kirche thing (with heavy emphasis on the Kirche especially these days) and rabid anti-science beliefs incredibly off-putting. To be fair, the Democrats have a few things they can get just as preachy and off-putting about, but they do put up a better facsimile of caring about the common man.
agreed. Both parties have polarized themselves to such an extent (with no real difference between them (both want to put their hands into your wallet) that I, for one, have stopped supporting both of them except in primary elections.
In reply to Warren: Warren I am neither a church-goer or a typical libtard. I am a former U.S. Marine and I own guns & believe that nobody should qualify for welfare unless they are paralyzed. I had hopes for Lord Cheeto before he was inaugurated but he’s proved to be a grave, orange disappointment as well as being incompetent & an idiot. There’s also strong evidence that he is a Russian agent, who has failed to register as an agent of a foreign power. The legitimacy of his election is at best, questionable.
Politics is like excrement. Everyone does it. if you do it in a way that others feel is wrong, everyone comments. Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a side.
My family as been soldiers for a long, long time and I try very hard to stay away from politics because frankly, it doesn’t make any sense. Especially in America currently, but everywhere to some degree.
We trust people to lead us who lie to us. Who abuse us. Who do everything in their power to keep their jobs. Up to an including murder if you believe many of the wilder conspiracy theories. We CANNOT trust the people in charge, but we PUT THEM in charge.
Does that make sense to anyone? It doesn’t make sense to me.
I recently wrote a fanfiction where I got insanely political and the whole point of it was to get insanely political. The person who was blamed for everything that went wrong (and BOY did it go wrong!) was the current chief executive of the US. As it turned out, he wasn’t actually the one who was responsible for all the bad in the fiction because he was sort of dead at the time. Funny thing? No one cared. They blamed him because 1) he was convenient and 2) he was asshole who wouldn’t know the word ‘diplomacy’ if it bit him. Which made him a very easy mark for the true bad guy in my story to blame.
That said, politics is a mess. it always has been and always will be because it is impossible to please everyone. It is when you act as if you don’t care about pleasing anyone that things get bad. As in ‘Second War of Northern Aggression’ bad.
People don’t care now. The very IDEA of ANYONE in the current US government upper echelons actually giving a damn about common citizens of the US if they are not personally involved with said citizens is ludicrous. It doesn’t matter the political party. They are all the same. They are NOT here to help, they are NOT here to protect, they are NOT here to make things better for people.
They are here to make money for themselves and their allies. Period.
This is what the majority of US voters wanted apparently. Now we get to see what a mess they make. I just hope it isn’t as bad as I fear.
American politics is a winner take all system that actively suppresses third party candidates
Both parties are fiscally conservative and militaristicly hawkish with most of the differences being about social issues.
In the 60s and 70s, Republicans started actively courting the growing population of evangelical Christians with wedge issues like abortion while at the same time Democrats were losing white Americans and gaining ground with people of color due to their focus on minority rights. The apocryphal quote from LBJ on signing the Civil Rights Act was, “We have lost the South for a generation.”
The two parties have continued to drive themselves to extremes over the past 4 decades with social issues until we are where we’re at now. Gerrymandering also keeps specific people in power long after their views have diverged from the populations they were originally elected to support.
Add in internal party movements like the Tea Party who really just seem to want to blow up DC and kill some black people and you get Donald Trump
It also encourages people to adopt groups of ideas instead of considering each on its own merit. Good luck finding a candidate if you happen to be fairly liberal with social values, but fiscally conservative. Note: “liberal” and “conservative” have their traditional meanings here, not the current political labels.
As to the original question, some of the extremism is because that is what makes the news. You would have to watch c-span or something like that to see the majority of the sane, not-so-controversial stuff. Also, I think the election primary system means that the more motivated (rabid?) voters are more involved in choosing the candidates for the main election.
@Tharcion, I can’t help much with MO or KY, but if you want background on rural NC, email me. I assume you can see the email address we use to post.
As the average number of US citizens per Congressman is over 750k, there is no way that individuals are important to any federal politician unless they can provide large bribes (or election funding). As it costs much more to win a federal post (House, Senate or President) than the salary from the post there are only 2 types of people that get elected – the very rich who can finance themselves and the ones who are totally dependent on their sponsors. As the salary for a member of the House or the Senate is less than that of a board member of a medium company, it does not attract honest intelligent people – instead it attracts the power hungry and the people who expect to make money from backhanders and deals.
First of all, it seems that no one can admit to making even the slightest mistake anymore … let alone a whopper like electing Trump. For every truth he has spoken on the record he vomits out three dozen verifiable lies.
And no, he doesn’t “misspeak” or “misunderstand the question.” He is a pathological liar. He lies on the record, then tells a different lie trying to “correct” the record.
Irrefutably a narcissist. Probably a megalomaniac. Absolutely a misogynist.
And yet when confronted with hundreds of hours (that is not hyperbole) of these well documented lies, hateful statements and broken promises that have been collected in just the last few years, Trump’s supporters only grow more strident, immovable and irrational.
All because they cannot admit to themselves or anyone else that they were wrong … and gullible, oh so gullible.
The other big problem with politics all around the world is that citizens have devolved into simplistic, greedy and irrational (a depressingly accurate descriptor these days) baby birds all cheeping for regurgitated worms.
Single issue fanatics will be the death of American politics. I know people who despise Trump and cringe whenever I point out his latest malicious blunder, but these folks were so rabidly pro-life that they cast aside every other concern to vote for the candidate that they hoped would stack the Supreme Court sufficiently to overturn Roe v. Wade and re-outlaw abortion. When I point out all of the long-term downsides to a 6-3 ultra conservative high court, they grit their teeth and say that nothing in all the world matters more that that one issue.
Sigh. Politics is depressing as hell and other than cast my vote into the ether every other year it seems that all any of us do is bitch about it, no matter which side we’re on.
So … when’s the next book coming out??? We could all use some good news!
True Dark will be out soon, as in probably next weekend barring unforeseen circumstances. I hope that’s good enough news.
I am not sure about the number of people per Congressional House District but I do know that the way they count it is ‘The number of People living in the district’ not the number of Citizens living in a district. In some districts with high illegal immigrant numbers and/or a high number of foreign workers the actual number of US Citizens in a district might get below 75% and maybe even lower. This way actually results in a few more Urban House Districts than if they went by only US Citizens and as a result it ends up taking power from outlying Suburban and Rural Districts. This has a much greater effect at the State level than the Federal level but even at the Federal level results in probably 2 or 3 extra House representatives for the Democrats that they probably would not have had otherwise. Not a huge number but in close cases it might be enough to effect the passage of a bill.
OK, Im gonna ignore any comments on politics here and just comment on non American views on American culture. Simply put, without living here for a time, its impossible to really understand. Not that that isnt true for any culture really, but the so called American way of life gets alot of media attention comparatively, so much of the rest of the world seems to think they have a good idea of what were like here without really knowing anything accurate. People all over the world seem obsessed with American pop culture and being more of what they consider to be American and have no idea what anything is because its all based on a media disconnect. I recall an interview years ago with a footballer (thats soccer player for you sports heathens) who wore a Yankees hat for years and just thought the NY logo was a brand name and not a baseball team, from seeing Yankees caps in the media all the time. Ive seen it a number of times with friends who are from another country and either moved here as a teenager or for college, and even the one who came here at 12(shes English BTW) still is baffled on occasion. What they expected America to be like from exposure to American media export gave them no understanding for the reality of this country. I think it can be difficult for some non Americans to understand our diversity of culture due to a history of immigration where as most countries around the world have a homogeneous culture with comparatively little immigration and introduction of foreign cultures. Here, two neighboring states can be radically different in addition to being larger than many countries both geographically and economically (Texas has a bigger GDP than Russia FFS)
I guess what Im trying to get at is, you can try to explain the facts or reasons all day, but until you live it for a while, it just doesnt sink in. And TV is a bad way to learn it as it doesnt reflect reality very well and just perpetuates stereotypes due to its exaggerated representation of life. So to all you non Americans, please dont judge us by what you see in the media or even think that its an accurate picture of life here.
But the judging part goes both ways. Americans often judge other countries beast on prejudice and cliche they get fed by American media. I dont say that is a good or a bad thing or that that gives others the right to judge americans. It is just to point out that nomater where we a from our view of the world is influeced by th media.
Concernig politics i dont thing that exterm politcs is just a phenomenon that exists in the USA it is just more pronounced there becaus they only have to partys with any canche of getting elected, afrer all extrems are what splits the society.
I haven’t read the other comments, so my apologies if I’m being redundant.
What’s happening here in the United States is a runaway positive feedback loop.
First, the political systems learned how effective fear was as a tool, since it both drives people to action and impairs their ability to think critically.
Second, people adapted, learning to tune out political messaging, so as to have some hope of living peacefully and happily.
Third, since the fear messaging wasn’t as effective as it had been, its users became more extreme. Return to step 2
It’s gotten to the point now where Democratic adherents honestly believe that “Republican” means “rapist,” and Republican adherents honestly believe that “Democrat” means “organized crime.” Fortunately, together they only account for about 20% of the population.
It’s all stupid. If you engage with a Democrat or Republican in a one-to-one way, and avoid using the phrases that trigger unthinking responses, they all want the same things: to live peacefully, with nobody really messing with them, and to do what they feel is right to help others.
Oh, boy. That’s a loaded question with a long answer.
I’m American, from Missouri. American politics is like trying to put together Ikea furniture, but the instructions are from two hundred years ago and the pieces are all from different manufacturers. A lot of what people have said above holds true: our politics have evolved to the point that only the rich or their sponsors can make it to the highest levels. Third parties are actively suppressed. Our education system has been failing in so many areas for so many years, it makes it easy for politicians to sway the masses with hatred, false promises, and outright lies. Historically, religion plays a huge role in American politics [separation of church and state? yeah…. very rarely. A few years ago a local, pro-life congresswoman in Missouri said that a child was the silver-lining of rape. She was pushing very hard for religious-based/religion-influenced bills.]. You also have the electoral college, which, two hundred years ago, made sense. But now it puts a lot of the nation’s voting power in the hands of very few. And those few tend to be white, male, and republican.
I think the best way to conceptualize American politics is to not think of America as one nation. We’re fifty different nations, each with our own laws, histories, and populace, that tries to get along and put together a united front on the world stage. For instance, Missourians and Kansasans hate each other [in the beginning of each state’s history, members of the other state would go over and vote in elections to throw off whatever the other was trying to do. One town, population two hundred, saw over a thousand votes one election b/c the other state was sending people to vote. We’re still bitter about this. Luckily, we’ve moved away from all out brawls. It comes out now in our sports: college football is serious business, and rivalries are huge.].
There’s honestly so much history and personal identification that goes into our politics. Unlike a lot of other nations, who already had socio-policial, national identities to ground the populace, the US has fumbled with that. We were a bunch of different peoples mushed together and told to play nice or die. People’s identities are wrapped up in their communities, and their communities are intrinsically tied to the history of a place [Human Geography is fascinating]. The American South is deeply connected with the events of the Civil War. It’s influenced laws, infrastructure, political associations, people’s attitudes. You name it, it’s influenced it. The Civil War was 150 years ago – not that long in the life of a nation. The people who live there live still feel that influence. And that influence is really strong, because we don’t have a thousand other years of history to fall back on for a national identity. We’re creating a national identity as we go, kind of like a toddler building a lego house. People feel politics very deeply here because those politics reflect their personal identities. You want a leader who will reflect your own values, and legitimize them. For better or worse.
Speaking as a folklorist and law student.
As to the question of whether American politics is that polarized, the answer is yes and no. Yes the media likes to play up the differences in politics and play on that polarization for stories more interesting due to more conflict. The people who make it on TV are likewise chosen for their sensationalism and rabid behavior.
Similarly politicians play up that polarization while speaking to their respective bases to shore up support in their sounding chambers of reinforcing voices.
However, as stated in posts above, the majority of people just want to be left out of politics.
Another aspect to consider is that regionally most areas of the U.S. tend to predominantly lean toward one political party. This is based on the electoral college and other political tools actively suppressing third parties perpetuating the two party system. With only two options to choose from with hope of a meaningful vote, politics has devolved into the Democrats and Republicans. Similarly the policies tend to split with each party choosing opposing views.
All the while politicians work together to spend money for their own interests and hiding behind arbitrary divides of politics to distract people who follow it.
As for Brexit, I don’t see how joining a trade agreement ever let a select group of politicians in Brussels pass laws for the rest of you.
Well, the original EU (the European Economic Community) was bound to end up with some alignment of laws, and leaving that community doesn’t change the fact that those laws still apply to most of those wanting to export their goods and services. Basically, the EU set out a set of unified laws for manufacturing everyone should follow, such that goods could be traded anywhere in the EU without anyone worrying over local laws for safety and the like. Anyone who wants to sell cheese to France is still going to have to meet EU trading standards, or they won’t accept the cheese.
Immigration is the same, theoretically. The EU has not internal borders, so the rules for entering from outside needed to be unified. I think it’s less evenly applied, but I don’t know enough about the individual countries to be sure.
The EU is kind of like America; it’s a federation of nation states. (See Rachel’s reply above.) We have people in Brussels making laws we don’t always entirely like (which are voted on by representatives of the member countries), you have people in DC making laws you don’t always entirely like (voted on by representatives of the member States). How it got like that… I think it was inevitable given European history.
A big difference between the EU and America is that there really is no way for Europe to really force an independent country to toe the line or leave. I doubt it would go over well if the EU sent troops from Germany to force England to admit more refugees.
I believe the EU is similar to the form of government the state’s had before the present constitution was adopted, a confrderacy. With the federal government having to go hat in hand to the state’s each time it needed something, it was no wonder the system broke down from the beginning.
The founding fathers never intended the U.S. to be one solid nation. It was a group of states who cooperated together as little as possible to survive. If you look at the why things were set up the way they did, it was to try and prevent what they saw as the failures of English government. A lot of those safeguards have been eroded in the last 50 years. The president pretty much makes war as he desires rather than asking permission from congress. Wealth was not supposed to be concentrated at the top of the social ladder creating an American nobility. Hence the inheritance tax.
I could go on and on, but it really isn’t a simple system. We have always been a nation of rebels and hotheads. We are the children of people who were disgruntled enough to forsake the comfort of their native countries and hope thing got better here. My grandparents were from southern Scotland and Ireland on my mother’s side. My father’s folks from Poland. We are mutts at best. Do you really expect the people of a country crazy enough to take on an English superpower not once, but twice to be anything other than scrappy and contentious?
Btw Trump won the election fair and square according to the rules. I don’t like the man, but I blame the Democrats for ignoring the rules of the game and acting like the overall popular vote mattered. Is the electrical college still relevent? Good question and one that should be debated first rather than the ethics of kneeling at a sports event.
In one of the early Thaumatology books I remember Lily pointing out that liberals can be very non-liberal with people with lifestyles or views they couldn’t contemplate having themselves.
This is the exact problem in the US and 90% of the media has this same view of the world so it just makes things worse. they say the racists are republican but in reality they are lefty’s as well.
And the biggest prob. is that no matter what the Right says it makes them racist sexist bigots or some other ist. when in reality if the left stopped trying to force their beliefs on us their wouldn’t be a prob. to begin with. Hell a conservative speaker can’t even talk on a collage campus without the left verbally and phys. assaulting them.
So you tell me what the real prob. is…..